Rules of Ultimate governed by the World Flying Disc Federation

Indirect Foul

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3 years 2 months ago #877 by bgravato
Indirect Foul was created by bgravato
2016 AUC women's final:



Start watching at minute 26:13

There's a floaty pass. Offensive receiving player calls a foul.
The foul is uncontested and is treated as an indirect foul and the disc goes back to the thrower.

From the rules:

17.9. Indirect Fouls:
17.9.1. An Indirect Foul occurs when there is contact between a receiver and a defensive player that does not directly affect an attempt to catch the disc.
17.9.2. If uncontested the fouled player may make up any positional disadvantage caused by the foul.


In my opinion the foul occurred during an attempt to catch the disc, so it should have been treated as a defensive receiving foul and the fouled player should have taken possession of the disc.

What do you think?

Furthermore, if this was in fact an indirect foul, since the disc was thrown before the call and there was a turnover, shouldn't the turnover prevail?


Personal comment: it seems to me that it's fairly common to see situations in which receivers call defensive receiving fouls (with the disc thrown), but they are not sure they would catch the disc, so the disc goes back to the thrower. If my understanding of the rules is correct this should never happen... Either the receiver had a play on the disc and (s)he should take possession of the disc, or if the receiver didn't have a play on the disc had the foul not ocurred, then the turnover should prevail. So unless the foul is contested I don't see any reason for the disc to go back to the thrower in these situations... am I wrong?


Cheers,
Bruno

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3 years 1 month ago #888 by rueben
Replied by rueben on topic Indirect Foul
Hi Bruno

Great question (which is why it has taken a while to get a proper answer).

Note: I am the Game Advisor in that footage

The player who was fouled did not believe that the foul directly affected an attempt to catch the disc. That is why it was deemed an indirect foul. However as you said, the rules aren't exactly clear what should happen regarding the turnover.

One of the key principles of Ultimate is that after a breach you should resume play in a manner which simulates what would most likely have occurred had there been no breach. In this case it was unclear what would have occurred, so the disc was returned to the thrower. We aim to make this clearer in future updates.

In regards to your question on defensive receiving fouls that go back to the thrower, from my experience this is often due to a disagreement as to whether the contact affected the play. Two players can agree that contact occurred, but they may disagree as to whether or not it affected the play - in that case, the disc should be returned to the thrower.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

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