Rules of Ultimate governed by the World Flying Disc Federation

Incorrect turnover calls

  • Einstein
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5 years 7 months ago - 5 years 7 months ago #515 by Einstein
Incorrect turnover calls was created by Einstein
I find myself confused after the previous discussion on resuming play after a stall . Apologies in advance if this seems a bit too pedantic.

According to discussion in the previous topic a stall-out call can not be retracted even if it was called in error. Specifically if a marker indicates a stall-out during or after a complete pass and then, after a discussion admits that they counted fast for the last 2 seconds the disc should still returns to the thrower at a stall count of 8.

Furthermore, the same (or similar) rules will most likely apply to all turnover calls including "out of bounds" and "down" calls which, like a stall out can easily be made in error. In practice, I have never seen the game played as above and think that we can generally agree that if the rules were implemented as written it would not reflect the intention of the rules.

I suggest that:
  1. The definition of "call" in the glossary of terms should include turnovers and goals
  2. The rules explicitly state that all calls can be retracted as opposed to just fouls and violations
Last edit: 5 years 7 months ago by Einstein.

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5 years 7 months ago - 5 years 7 months ago #516 by Flo
Replied by Flo on topic Incorrect turnover calls
As mentioned above, the stall out is not a violation, it is just a turn over. If the stall out is due to a fast count, it is still a stall out. But the thrower can in a way retroactively call the fast count, with the specific rule saying that this is treated as a contested stall, even though the actual stall out happened.

It is similar to a mid count fast count: if you fast count, you can not retract a number you said to void (or prevent) a fast count call (1...23retract3...4...).

On the other hand, if you as the marker are convinced that you called "stall out" in error after the fact, then your erroneous call should be treated as a violation as the stall out never happened. If the thrower agrees that there was no stall out (only he or his team mates can call you on your violation, you can not self call it), you do not apply the contested stall rule, and the disc stays where it is.
Last edit: 5 years 7 months ago by Flo.

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5 years 7 months ago #517 by Einstein
Replied by Einstein on topic Incorrect turnover calls

Flo wrote: As mentioned above, the stall out is not a violation, it is just a turn over.

I'm not suggesting (in this thread) that it should be a violation. I incorrectly interpreted 15.3 in the previous thread.

Flo wrote: On the other hand, if you as the marker are convinced that you called "stall out" in error after the fact, then your erroneous call should be treated as a violation as the stall out never happened. If the thrower agrees that there was no stall out (only he or his team mates can call you on your violation, you can not self call it), you do not apply the contested stall rule, and the disc stays where it is.

I agree that this has the same effect as allowing the turnover to be retracted but seems like a very cumbersome exchange. First the offence needs to contest the call, then the defense needs to admit they were incorrect without calling violation on themselves, then the offence should call violation because of the mistake.

These (contested turn-over) calls are quite common and in general are resolved quickly and easily but do not follow the rules as you describe them (IMO). I still think that this warrants a change but perhaps my suggestions above would have other consequences.

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5 years 7 months ago #518 by Flo
Replied by Flo on topic Incorrect turnover calls
The problem with allowing retractions on this is that sometimes players may retract a call to gain an advantage, and not because they genuinely think that their call was wrong. In general, only the player/team wronged by an infraction may call it.

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5 years 7 months ago #520 by Einstein
Replied by Einstein on topic Incorrect turnover calls
First: Is the theory that because turnovers can be called by either team that opens the door to possible advantages in withdrawing? Am I missing another aspect?

Second: As long as there a method for turnover calls to be overturned after discussion and perspective then I'm happy (even if it is necessarily cumbersome).

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